Where's the Beef?

RWilliamKing's picture

It seems to me that a lot of contributors are just posting interview quotes, or providing links from other stories as if this were engadget, or some other blog-reporting site.

Where's the core content?

Why do we have quotes and citations, instead of real original research providing a point of view, or an angle, or information?

It seems to me that there's a lack of effort being put into doing the legwork. Am I right or wrong?

Discuss?


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Is this an unfortunate aspect of Crowdsourcing Journalism?

Bloggers have been criticized for relying on reporting of mainstream media for their comments and blog entries. Obviously, some of that criticism is unfair. I have noticed what you're writing about, Robert. I have wondered whether this is an inevitable aspect of crowdsourced journalism (one of the downsides). Some links are useful and necessary, but I am grateful for people like you who are reporting. Vivian


Possibly.

RWilliamKing's picture

Here's the thing;

I don't want to go all Sanger on the AZ community, but he makes a good point with this policy that all Citizendiens should follow (speedily and hastily adapted--partly in humor, mostly in serious):

Have you actually bought into this Assignment Zero thing at all? If not, leave well alone, please, and stick with (insert blog site here) until you're actually convinced. This means, among other things, that you are committed to working in a collegial, mature atmosphere, guided gently by expert editors. More generally it means you accept and will work toward our core goals.


I agree...but it might not be everyone's fault...

lrsachs's picture

I'm a little disappointed in how things are going with AZ, but part of this is an organizational headache. I can be totally proactive and I spend most of my working life doing that. But since this is extracurricular for me now I sorta' want instructions (assignments?). Just give me a task and I'll go do it. I wish there was a checklist of things that are taken and things that are not. It's just a blurb about the subject and general calls to action..."Go look at the blogs"... "read his books and tell us what you find" ... "what is different about this vs. that." I'm still plodding through, but I don't see as much life as I was hoping. Maybe I'm just interested in the wrong topics? Come to think of it, maybe it's all my fault. Of course..... :-P

AIM - leersachs
email - lee.sachs@gmail.com


Assigning Tasks and Posting Checklists

I very much agree with this: "But since this is extracurricular for me now I sorta' want instructions (assignments?). Just give me a task and I'll go do it. I wish there was a checklist of things that are taken and things that are not."

As it is, it's impossible to know if an interview you want to do is taken, or still available. I want to interview the founder(s) of DoMyStuff.com, which is a site that David Cohn had mentioned would be a good one to cover, but I can't get started because I have no idea if someone else is already doing it. I think we should be able to go to the Assignment Desk, pick what we want, check off that we're doing it, and go do it.


People work in different ways.

RWilliamKing's picture

I think for some, tasks and lists are better; for others, that's not the case.

But I think as it stands you're right in that I think the assignment desk could have greater/better/different organization and/or functionality.


Don't get me wrong...

RWilliamKing's picture

I'm not faulting everybody. It just seems like there isn't much, dare I say, "original research" going on. It's like a whole bunch of soundbites are submitted and somehow all of them have to be listened to see if a meaning can be gleaned from them.


ok, here you go

"It's like a whole bunch of soundbites are submitted and somehow all of them have to be listened to see if a meaning can be gleaned from them."

OK, help me out please -
I read through Sanger's Slashdot memoir, and have read Nicholas Carr's roughtype columns trashing Wikipedia, and have read between the lines of the writeups of our AZ interviews with Sanger (in which it sounds to me like S imposed limitations on what the interviewer could and couldn't say, that S is the one in control; advice from Halberstam: never, never, never, let them intimidate you.) .

My impression - from S and C's writings, and from the comments responding to them, and from the interview - is that S and C do not have credibility - that one of them tends toward pedantry and flights of fancy, is promulgating a project that has little hope of success, and is prone to making sweeping general statements without providing specifics to back them up; and that the other looks to get attention by trashing things and will do so using whatever tools are at hand, not being shackled by the petty constraints of logical consistency.

IMO that's the "meaning to be gleaned" from the soundbites I've assembled and the lines I've read between. But as the 'journalist' I'm not allowed to say that; I have to find someone else who'll read what I've read and say these things for me; then I can be impartial and quote them.

So what exactly should I be doing to develop this angle - dragoon my housemate into reading the pieces and saying it for me? Specifics, please.


addendum

I do want to say that this is my opinion, based on writings; sometimes people do come across differently (and better) in person.

So maybe that's at least partly why the tenets of journalism say "thou shalt not make broad sweeping judgments..."
(aka "show, don't tell")


all those soundbytes!

Tish Grier's picture

Part of what crowdsourcing involves, I think, is indeed listening to all those little soundbytes and then figuring out which ones work, which ones are appropriate, etc. In asking people to "contribute," what they are able to contribute varies from person to person. So, some will contribute links that need investigation. Links might be the info they want to, and have the time to share with the folks on the topic.

Contributing links, and a line or two about them, though, is a blogger-y way of doing things. That goes back to the very early days of blogging, when a lot of it was about how getting input on the code one was working on, or about sharing cool stuff one found on the Internet. What we now call "social bookmarking," as with del.icio.us and stumble upon, is related to these old ways of blogging. Remember, too, that back in the olden days of the Internet--the '90's ;-) -- the idea of being social *and* writing long-form stuff just wasn't part of the landscape. "Websites" were clunky and you had to know a lot of HTML for them to make sense. So the ethos of "here's the link, check it out" still colors a lot of blogging (you should read the pro-con arguments re posts and length!). It ends up also affecting nascent crowdsourcing reporting and info-collecting methodologies.

Those of us who are working on participation (myself, Amanda, and David a bit) would like to know what we can do to help. Would a shout-out for more reporting help? And on what topics? We're also trying to figure out if folks feel they have to be professionals to do the reporting (some editors have received email to that effect). Do y'all think that maybe a post on the Scoop featuring profiles of different reporters might be helpful? Just let us know--email or comment. Whichever works best :-)


Networking

Tish, networking seems to be key in figuring this thing out. However, the complexity of networks is a hugely daunting task.

I have done some heavy thinking about the concepts involved here at AZ. I would like to discuss this here but like lrsachs (above), I am doing this on my own time.

The core questions involved are about networking systems. That's the real story behind crowdsourcing anyway. I'm also planning to start a citizen journalism project and this is a concept I'm just beginning to brooch. The concepts I'm working on are Metanet and Ultranet. Chessy and obscure but they effectively describe the phenomena at work.

Understanding the phenomena will help understand why people participate, Tish. I would like to help the Participation Team at AZ but who would I contact and under what posting? Even this is a good example of network systems. I don't know the in-roads to help.

If anyone wants to serious discuss this here is my phone 4129694034. I know I'm taking a risk but it's a calculated risk. How many people are looking at this posting, really? And my email is robkpark@gmail.com

Sometimes taking risks are the only way to get a head.


It's about the people

Tish Grier's picture

Robert...you sound very much like a marketer: Marketers spend a lot of time figuring things out, reading stats, finding focus groups, etc. Yet the best-intentioned marketing campaigns are missing the mark. See John Windsor's book "Beyond the Brand"...

As for starting a citizen journalism project, think about the people--they're what makes a project work (WestportNow, Baristanet) and not work (Backfence.com)

You may also want to take a look at this report from the J-lab on citizen journalism and citizen journalists. It highlights some of the most successful ventures (so far.) Their success is predicated, mostly, on their relationships with people.


Re;

I agree a "specific tasks" list would be great; but I wish any of us could add to it, even if our "suggested additions" were (lightly) segregated from the "editor-approved" list. ** generic viagra ** cialis ** acomplia ** Probably too late now to change the structure; but in future...


Relationships with People is Networking

Pigeon holing my statements as "a marketer" is an odd choice,Tish.

Networks are about people. Networks are also much more. Nothing about the concepts meta-networks and the ultra-network are about stats, focus groups, or branding as you have predefined for me.

A friend recently pointed this current issue of Forbes magazine devoted to networks. ( The May 7, 2007 issue is currently available.)

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/

You last sentence,"Their [citizen journalist's] success is predicated, mostly, on their relationships with people," states it best. These relationships were formed by some sort of networking system. Just as crowdsourcing is based upon some sort of networking system.

Having a taxonomy for types of network may help the success for open source project of all types, including this one.

Tish, still think this just a marketer's scheme?


Specifics

RWilliamKing's picture

This could be an idea:

Under each topic, where there are multiple assignments, list specific things that should be extracted from each assignment. For example, if the assignment under "Citizendium" is to "Interview Larry Sanger", then there should be a sublist that says

Obtain the following:
- Larry Sanger's thoughts on Crowdsourcing
- Larry Sanger's thoughts on Wikipedia
- Larry Sanger's thoughts on blogs
- What can be said about the kind of direction Larry Sanger is heading?
- What does Sanger believe the future of information is? How will it be disseminated?
- Sanger's idea of an "expert"
- Write a summary combining these ideas

I think the vagueness of each assignment results in total indirection; I think that maybe more guidance about what might be acheived would be more helpful.


also, not just editor-directed

"list specific things that should be extracted from each assignment."

yes but...
In some cases I just want to take a concrete task and execute it; in others, I have ideas for tasks that someone else could do.
This is another reason why I wish this site were a wiki - it feels like there's a barrier between what the participants can do and what the site owners can do.
I agree a "specific tasks" list would be great; but I wish any of us could add to it, even if our "suggested additions" were (lightly) segregated from the "editor-approved" list.
Probably too late now to change the structure; but in future...

(also, if it were a wiki , for all I know we could be facing a host of other problems that'd make us wish it weren't. The grass is always greener and all that.)


perhaps something for the editors?

Tish Grier's picture

Perhaps more communication with the editors would help? Give them some idea what/how to make what's going on a bit clearer? Do you think that's, perhaps, part of it?

One thing to remember, too--lots of people involved with AZ are on different spots on the online communication continuum, so some are more effective and know more about how to handle it than others. Toggling between communicating in an f2f environment and an online environment is tough, and sometimes things get lost in the translation from one environ to the other. Someone may be thinking the points you bring up are crystal clear, but are only clear in his/her head....

It's tough....and a lot of this--how we're doing it--is really new to lots of folks.


When are you writing your book, TIsh?

You have a lot of insight to share--much more than some of my academic colleagues who claim to study online culture.


QFT.

RWilliamKing's picture

I think I jumped the gun slightly, but wanted to illustrate a point. Maybe it is an issue that is something that crowdsourcing has. I didn't mean to come off as an authority on a subject; I can imagine I might have.

But I think you're right. The fact that it's a newish concept does potentially lead to the discovery of benefits and problems with the system. I also agree that there may be misinterpretations between what is said and what is meaned. I fault myself for that too.

I think I let my alpha slip out of it's cage.


You said what many of us were thinking

Vivian B. Martin


Sometimes...

Sometimes people do come across differently (and better) in person